Some miscellaneous thoughts on Dee

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Aside from the obvious thoughts of running naked through trees

I was thinking on various builders and starting strats for them. You'll notice my write up neglected Dee. Quite truthfully I can't say as I've ever really gotten a good/best handle on how to run the faction. I've played it a number of times and done very well. But not one that I would say is my long suit if you know what I mean.

Anyhoo,

It occurs to me Dee is more hybrid than classic builder. I've never been comfortable with the variable nature of her energy. A big source I count on is due to worm trolling. But its not something I can look at as a constant.

That being said the explore techs are one to go after. Mobility and Flexibility as it aids in the ability to aquire worms and IoD's. With those then pod popping becomes lucrative as well. Again tho' its the variable nature of pod popping results that I kinna have issue with. It's not that the results can be good or bad but moreso I want to be able to plan my moves based upon knowns.
(but again I digress)

Reason why I say Hybrid (or maybe even a momemtum) faction is with these especially Flex. you get some options.

I've written over at 'poly a couple of times use of early land transports and why they are nice. But you know what, despite that advice as a builder in the methods I described you turtle and concentrate on infrastructure. By the time you get around to looking at your first war you at or near D:AP (in transcend large world game turns prolly MY2170+) . At that point the whole war dynamic changes and need for early other technologies isn't nearly as important as air power. So I normally forget to build them.

But...... I'm thinking maybe Dee is the perfect faction for the old early game rush with worms and combined tactics. So, I know there are a lot of Dee advocates out there give some guidance.

For now I'm thinking of playing some games and giving a few new beelines a try.

Something like

Beeline to Planetary networks - Go Planned
Beeline to Flexibility - Crank out a few land based transports
Beeline to Impact Weapons - Crank out some 4-1-1's
Begin first offensive to make first submissive using worms, transported 4-1-1's

Beeline to Green

Probe others to aquire beeline techs to IA.



Thoughts?

Og

[buster]

Not having played that much Dee my experience has been that she can be quite powerful as a builder. Two games particularly come to mind - a recent CGN tourney victory and a poly tourney victory.

Mainly the high efficiency allows one to run larger empires than the others without the downsides showing.

The main strategy I have employed with Dee is "get big quick". Not being able to FM - running planned, demo becomes the natural choice - maybe with a stint of green for catching worms or special situations where you want to crank up allocations of research or energy.

She is not much different - only one needs to make up in size for what the Morgan can get from FM and UNI gets from their bonus.

It is probably the best faction for the ICS enthusiast.

Main downside is actually the morale penalty - especially if running wealth - thus most of the games I have played have been with me doing demo, planned, knowledge and concentrating on building up a huge machine.

Wealth sometimes if I get involved in tightly timed building projects and green once in while too. But mostly its been using the +3 efficiency of knowledge, demo, planned while in pop boom mode at the same time to just have the numbers on my side, whether it came to war or to winning the tech race.

Key point is is spreading out really fast early and then just continuing to do so beyond where one woould normally start slowing down.

On a small map one will need to go for an early worm attack or having bad luck there keep watching for a vulnerable neighboar.

I am not so sure I see the point in the different beeline - unless the transports are needed to expand off a small island. She is actually not that suited for agressive playing unless you get a bunch of early worms. Even so the worms are slow moving unless in fungus. Due to morale penalty your units will usually be green or very green making it annoyingly frequent that one looses a battle if ones rover gets attacked by a 1-1-1 or a worm for that matter.

I actualy usually use the worms to pop pods (they have the advantage of never being attacked by native worms) and to get more worms. If a target of opportunity comes one takes it but it is not something one can plan on.

She actually can do very well in the tech race just going the normal beelines. If it came to combat most of it has been in the chop and drop time - trying to win by superior numbers and if it was a peacefull race outresearching by having huge cities & lots of them.

The extra fungus resources actually gets usefull too (forgot what it is but already in late mid game one can usually plonk down a city in fungus and have it do great just with that.

In my experience you make it or break on the very early expansion and "grab that land" and if needed - defending it with worms patrolling fungus patches if neighboars get annoyed due to agressive encroaching. Worms are great at intercepting the enemy when crossing fungus. The rest follows.

The two games I did was won mainly by a huge lead in population.

[Mark]

I have played quite a bit with Dee actually, and it strikes me that they are a very powerful builder faction if played in the right way, as Buster described. They are also far and away the best faction for those who are not FM-inclined (that goes without saying really) as they have ways for making up for the loss in cash and, perhaps more pressingly, tech.

For builders, get big quick is certainly what you're looking to do with Dee. Personally, I find you're looking at planned first, which is on the way to IndAuto, of course - stop off to get that, then you're looking for Ethical Calculus, for Demo, and start throwing up those creches as quickly as possible. Because Dem/Planned is the optimum SE setting for Deirdre, you're looking at a permanent pop-boom - all you're really looking to do is to feed the bases with nuts, and they'll grow - no 'pre-planned' (meaning in the true sense of the word, and not the SE choice) pop-boom periods you need to go through with Lal or Zak, you just intrinsically have it. Just feed the bases with nuts, and they'll grow - for this reason, the WP is a very useful project, to get those condensor/farm 4 nut combos as early as possible (and remember, you *don't* need restrictions lifted for those to work).

It goes without saying that wealth is a must - if you have enough energy, you can force a GA by jacking your psych up to 40% for a turn or so - dropping it down to 20 or 30% means the GA *should* hold, giving you the +2 economy. This is perhaps the best SE combo of any faction in this game - pop booming, +2 efficiency, +2 economy, +2 industry - it all depends on how much energy you have coming in through other means, though.

The Gaians are the best all-round faction in the mid-game. The only real problem is the morale penalty - but once you're boomed, you can use specialists to make up for the cash and research problems of no FM, and a strong military, and hopefully air power (no FM = airforce) to supplement this. Once tree farms come along, you're humming - hybrid forests I believe are a must for Deirdre, as instead of a jump from 2 -> 3 energy you get whilst running FM, it's from 1 -> 2 - a full 100% increase. You also fairly desperately need boreholes for Deirdre - once you've got those up, your tech rate will be as good as any builder faction.

Hybrid-wise, I've always believed that the Gaians' strength is not only early game, when their worms come into play, but as soon as air becomes available, when their inability to run FM means they can afford to support a large airforce, unlike factions like the PKs - a jet rush becomes viable, and the industry bonus of Dem/Planned means they're in as good a shape as anybody to crank out those air units. When other factions start to switch out of FM, of course, the advantage is negated - but for those first 10-15 turns with Air, you hold the initiative.

You need a lot of luck to worm-rush somebody - even with four or five worms, you'll struggle against any normal human player. And even then, you don't gain an awful lot - this isn't the best way to play Dee, IMHO.

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by Mark
I have played quite a bit with Dee actually, and it strikes me that they are a very powerful builder faction if played in the right way, as Buster described. They are also far and away the best faction for those who are not FM-inclined (that goes without saying really) as they have ways for making up for the loss in cash and, perhaps more pressingly, tech.

I have to agree, almost to the letter, with what Mark posted above. Some quick comments from my experiences with Dee:

1. Running naked thru the trees. Need I say more!
2. Seriously now: cash is not an issue as you get plenty popping pods and frying MW's (on large worlds anyways) to see you thru the early game, after that tree farms/ Hybrid forest/ Boreholes take over.
3. Weak military is made up for thru monoliths/ morale enhancements thru popping pods and frying MW's. These are the units that are upgraded to Particle Impactors/ Chaos/Shard weapons.
4. On small worlds, when I can, I build around a fungus patch. Then for defensive purposes I stock it with a MW which can quickly move to the threatened region. However, if no attacks are forthcoming, the unit trolls for more MW's, and over time gives me positives from points 2 and 3 above. Also, because it is a fungal patch, if my defensive grid is penetrated, I am almost assured of not receiving a followup attack immediately as the enemy has to slog thru it, allowing me time to regroup.
5. I can't comment much on SE settings: I think this has been covered quite well by the posts above. I simply play variations of these depending on the geopolitical climate of the game I'm in.
6. Early in the game, when most factions are moribund by lack of roads, the Gaians are zipping along thru the fungus. For someone with a military capability and an eye for opportunity, this can be an ideal avenue for a momentum game, "spoiling tactics", or guerrilla warfare (i.e. "hit and run" to the fungus and heal and repeat), depending on the situation the Gaians find themselves in.

D

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Thanks guys,

Thats how I normally have played Dee as well.

But I'm lookin' for a different angle here. (See I always am looking to be nonconventional in an approach doesn't always work but I gotta try it) Gonna have a couple SP goes at it and I'll let you know my thoughts.

Regardless, my thoughts are Dee of the builderish factions is probably the least affected by a blind research game. She has a lot of options and most any tech that comes her way she can put to good use. Whilst in my mind the others need certain beelines and SP's associated with certain techs to really shine.

Og

[buster]

On the unconventional approach I can say this:

In games where I have sought a very early game conflict I have usually followed a beeline like the one you describe. Getting out with very early probe ships and landing 4-1-1s before the others are worrying about defenses.

The 4-1-1s are strong enough to take on all but the Hive well into the early game and having gotten infiltration one can often launch a devastating attack with a few units on an unprepared opponent. Getting some worms or unity rovers from pods help as usually you just need a 4-1-1 to take out a defender and some other unit that does not need to be strong to move into the city.

The downside to early offensives is that often there is little left of ones conquest as many cities will get wiped.

[Blarney]

I like Gaians most of all, it was the first I tried when I got the game, and feel I am most successful with that faction. I was the victim of Buster's Gaian experience, noted above, but have dealed out a few myself. That game I chose the Spartans, never having played it before, but had the philosophy that it had a decided advantage in the early game -- I was wrong! In fact, I've only lost 1 game playing Gaians (that versus Mark) which was set up a bit different than a normal MP game (in his favor of course, haha).

My thots on Gaian's, without repeating all of whats been said, and all that I agree with. Gaian's are the best in an early game, and since most MP games I've been in barely go over 100 years, the Gaians are in the top 3 simply by default -- as long as you know how to start them off.

The first order of business is catching that free mindworm, and sending him out to pop pods. You say there is the random chance of it all which is unsettling, but even the worst experience of popping pods, more mindworms, can be turned into an advantage by the Gaians, just don't attack them. If encountering a mindworm, I often won't battle him right away, depending on whether I need the cash, but rather wait for a few turns to see whether I can capture him or not.

The next order of business is Dem/Planned/Wealth as stated above, plus getting the CCs built for the pop boom. In MP games, it isn't really necessary to build HabComps as the game is usually over by the time you've got the SPs and facilities built which permit this.

In battle, the mindworms simply serve to get sneak attacks on ill-prepared bases through the fungus, but are generally not the best units to use as a fighting force that can retain your position. Capturing the IoDs help with this though, because it gives you instant transports, both to move troops, but also to pop pods and carry your pod poppers to islands (taking home all the AAs you uncover as well).

That's enuf for now, but I think the Gaians are the best to play in MP, the Spartans, Believers and Morgans the most difficult. I certainly need practice with these other three.

[Mark]

That game I chose the Spartans, never having played it before, but had the philosophy that it had a decided advantage in the early game -- I was wrong!

LOL! Funny how I could very nearly copy that word for word

Seriously though, an early game conflict approach can do more harm than good, IMO, with any faction. What you're essentially looking at is taking out one, maybe two factions in the early game, geared up for war. Yeah, you'll take them out, in all likelihood - but what have you gained? You've lost a load of production to military - but after a certain point, when faced with a builder, they'll be cannon fodder. Your only real hope is that you've taken out two of your biggest rivals with an early game rush - and even in that situation, anyone else is going to get a good headstart on you.

Interesting you say about most games being over before hab complexes - well, I've found that sort of thing to be the exception rather than the rule. In 2x3, for instance, I had a lot of good luck, and what in my feeble existence I would regard as a brainwave by switching to the PTS at the last moment as the Hive. The UoP supplied all my tech without a problem, and I was simply able to sweep the board - and the production the PTS gives you, along with the out-and-out ICS I was playing....well, it's unstoppable. In most games, it doesn't happen - though an awful lot does depend on the first 70 turns, it is not usually when the game is *decided*. At least in my experience.

So you've really got to do something with the Gaians after that, and the bigger you can get, the better. Of course, in CGN2, you should refrain from building Hab Complexes, because us mere mortals need some sort of chance

[RedFred]

Some thoughts on Dee...

She is not nearly good enough at the early worm rush to use it on a regular basis. Play Chow Down if you want to chomp your neighbours early with a worm rush. Dee's wimpy Green but also green units are vulnerable to an early counterattack. And unless you SE to Green or nab the Nexus, you won't get a big native army early on.

Beware of SEing to Dem too quickly. You need to get lots of bases out there ASAP at the start of the game. The free 1-1-1 will greatly assist your expansion allowing you to actually grow more quickly horizontally than if you go early to the +2 vertical growth of Dem.

Ogie is right about the suitability of the Gaians for the blind tech game. My conclusion is based on emperical evidence (playing a lot of double blind games with every faction) rather than deductive logic.

Planned is not a slam dunk. There will be times, such as during a war, during sunspots or during a tech race where the high efficiency and planet rating of Green will be an attractive option for planned despite the huge growth hit. The other nice feature with Green is that you can crank your research or energy production close to 100% with no penalty. This is the way I sometimes deal with the temporary troughs in the Gaian's lumpy cash flow.

Wealth is less attractive with the Gaians than for other factions. But it is doable especially if you are at peace and you haven't researched Knowledge yet. CN is always a great SP but it is huge for the Gaians. Otherwise, especially with Wealth and no Creches, you can wind up producing comically extra super green cannon fodder units. MCC also has extra value for the Gaians.

You should use various means to overcome your inability to hit +1 energy per tile until late game. The usual suspects, ME, PEG, Energy Parks, as well as good diplomacy for trade income are helpful. Vel's guide also recommends intimidating the other factions away from a high energy SE, but that isn't normally my style with the Gaians.

I hope my Hive opposition in my Gaian MP game doesn't read about all my preferred SPs in this thread.

[Sikander]

I like the Gaians as a builder faction, and they have one advantage over some of the other builder factions in the form of mindworms. I remember starting out on a medium sized continent with Yang, and worm-rushing him into oblivion very quickly in the early game. His walls availed him not at all against my small but nimble worm force.

In another game I was turtling when Yang started hitting me with aircraft, long before I had them myself. I countered with big mindworm defenders (and the SE that gives you a defensive bonus in psi combat), and the attacks dropped off to nothing. This allowed me to leave my SE settings alone while I continued to build up my productivity.

I think the worms are best at defense unless you are really close to someone. They have almost the same range as rovers on your road net for counterattacking due to the fact that they can attack at full strength with only 1/3 movement left, and they are clearly superior in the fungus. You don't have to use your low-morale troops, and if you back up your worms with some probe teams you can run wealth til the cows come home. Plus any worms who happen to be stationed in fungus are essentially clean. While I don't think the green combat paradigm is worthwhile for most factions, the added bonus to planet and low morale of the Gaian troops makes it a much more attractive option for them.

The other huge advantage for the Gaians is their +2 efficiency, which allows them to build more bases and reap more of the energy they generate. You can make up for the lack of FM very easily with either specialists or GA or a combination of the two. I tend to hate allocating any energy to psych, but using empaths gives you psych and cash, and you can adjust every base as needed. This makes GAs very easy, especially if you nab the HGP.

I usually use a three on the diagonal spacing for the Gaians and concentrate more on horizontal expansion than vertical. This means that I use forest for a lot longer than I normally do in my more tightly spaced and former intensive University games. A few condensor farms will give you all you need to GA and pop boom up to full size. I even energy and mineral farm my unworked squares, shooting for a 50 / 50 worker to specialist ratio. Similar to how I play Lal actually, but the energy suffers a lot less from inefficiency.