Naval Combat

[Son of Liberty]

I decided not to move the previous posts on this dicussion into this thread instead I'll copy them into this post:

Originally posted by Son of Liberty A system that uses hitpoints is quite badly needed. Almost every Col player I met (online) mentioned at some point that combat was either too simple or too random. I agree with that view and I think one of the main reasons for that is the lack of a hitpoint system. Let's look at the following scenario a big warships attacks a couple of smaller ships, one after another. When using hitpoints the big ship would easily defeat the first small one but would suffer some damage. The next ship would not be that easy to defeat since the big ship is damaged and the third small ship might then actually be able to sink it.

Originally posted by LandGrabber I can support a hit/damage point system for ships (with one question), but I'm not in favor of it for land combat. There I'd like to see a step system similar to the old game with the change that a Cavalry Unit that takes a loss doesn't become a Soldier, but instead becomes a Half Strength Cavalry Unit; requiring both Muskets and Horses to bring it back up to Full strength. (Perhaps even the addition of some kind of half strength Colonist Unit as well.)

The one question about the Ship system: People are going to want to be able to repair a damaged ship to full strength. This means that as long as the Player keeps his ships in good repair, they won't really have a 'life span' as such. Can you suggest a way to deal with this problem that doesn't get too complicated?

Originally posted by Rumrunner
For hit point systems in general, I take the opposite view of LandGrabber. Hit points make sense for land units, where you're dealing with groups of soldiers and some are lost to battle. However, naval vessels seem to be more representative of single ships, and gradual damage makes less sense here. Either the ship floats, sinks, or is so damaged it must retreat for repairs. Given the large timescale of the game, continual damage from turn to turn wouldn't fit well. Of course, as I said, a combat system is somewhat arbitrary, so I use these thoughts just as guidelines.

[Son of Liberty]

To answer LG's question concerning damaged ships: Of course would every player try to keep the ships undamaged but that would gradually cost money (or wood). A player could have the folowing options for repairing ships.

- repair ships in the old world: this is the alternative that costs (a lot of) gold.
- repair ships in his/her colonies: a colony with docks could repair a ship to half it's strength, drydocks enable the player to repair ships to 80% while a shipyard can repair a ship completely. These options require wood (and any other resource that is needed to build a ship) and time.

[LandGrabber]

I agree with SoL concerning his system of repairs, my problem is the one of a limited life span of a ship. In the old game I quite often ended the game in 17xx still having my original Merchantman I started the game with. That means the merchantman was sailing the seas for over 200 years (or 300 turns).

I think we should either put a limited number of turns on a ship's life span, or else add a factor based on the number of turns the ship has been around to the repair cost. So that eventually it would make sense to scuttle a ship and buy a new one rather than repair the old one.

[Rumrunner]

At what point in history did blasting away with connons become the dominant form of naval combat? By the 1500s, was the tactic of sailing alongside the defending ship and boarding to attack merely attempted by looting pirates?

my problem is the one of a limited life span of a ship...That means the merchantman was sailing the seas for over 200 years

Do you have any problems with your original colonists still hanging around?

[LandGrabber]

At the time of the Spanish Armada the English attempted to stand off and fight with cannon, while the Spanish tactic was to close and board. This was the beginning of the shift to long range naval combat.

No, I'm not at all surprised that the descendants of the original colonists carry on in their family business. However I've never yet heard of a ship's longboat growing up to become a merchantman!

[NuclearDruid]

RR, I see two problems with you colonist question. The first "problem" is fundamental to the game. The figure represents an economic unit more than it does a finite number of people. A half dozen Silversmith familes in a colony may make up a Silversmith figure whereas a Farmer figure may represent 50 families for example.

The second problem is that colonists are constantly consuming food throughout the game but capital items only consume resources while being made. A colony that makes a merchant does not continue to use up 5 lumbers and 1 hammer every turn on maintenance costs and upgrades on the fleet of merchant vessels that the icon represents.

[Urkki]

Originally posted by NuclearDruid
The second problem is that colonists are constantly consuming food throughout the game but capital items only consume resources while being made. A colony that makes a merchant does not continue to use up 5 lumbers and 1 hammer every turn on maintenance costs and upgrades on the fleet of merchant vessels that the icon represents.

Maybe we could include maintenance costs to the game? But since every colony can produce hammers and lumber, and ships don't have "home colony", maybe it should be gold what is needed.

[LandGrabber]

I believe it was part of SoL’s original intention with hitpoints that each turn a ship would suffer some damage. (I’m not sure if he meant this only for turns in which the ship was not in port or not.) In effect this would be a maintenance cost in the sense that the Player would constantly be having to devote resources to the ship in order to keep it at maximum efficiency.

While gold would be the easiest way to handle maintenance, it’s not the only way. It has been suggested that colonies would require certain items for their own upkeep and that this could be made into a sort of internal economy. (Colony A needs X tons of Rum to keep its citizens happy, while Colony B needs X tons of Stone to repair its Fortress walls.) This sort of thing should probably wait for a later version. (It has also been suggested that we have a new resource, Naval Stores, that could be used to maintain ships, and be required to build new ones.)

It appears that maintenance was considered in the earliest versions of the old game. The attached image is from the ‘names.txt’ file. The last number in each row is the ‘upkeep’ number.

[Rumrunner]

The figure represents an economic unit more than it does a finite number of people

How many famillies in a petty criminal unit? A scouting unit? The upkeep cost for these economic units to wander around or sit at the colony gate is no more than that for a ship. Given the cross-over between economic unit and combat unit in the game, I'd find it very difficult to put this aspect under much scrutiny. "We need a militia- quick, all you sugar planting families, grab these muskets and fight for your fellow man!" "<knock knock> Ahem. Hello, we're a group of savage indians on a raid. We were just systematically salughtering all the blacksmiths in your colony, and we understand Ezekiel Smith was visiting you for dinner. Would you mind sending him outside?"

Has there been any consideration given to creating combat units directly from some sort of population pool in a colony as opposed to arming an 'economic unit'?

[Oops, wrong thread...]

[Son of Liberty]

Originally posted by LandGrabber
I think we should either put a limited number of turns on a ship's life span, or else add a factor based on the number of turns the ship has been around to the repair cost. So that eventually it would make sense to scuttle a ship and buy a new one rather than repair the old one.

I don't really think that something like that is needed. If you constantly repair your ship (which always costs a bit) why shouldn't it stay alive. Perhaps we could say that a ship that is 90% damaged is just as expensive to repair as building a new one, while it would almost cost nothing to repait a ship that is 10 to 20% damaged

Originally posted by Rumrunner
At what point in history did blasting away with connons become the dominant form of naval combat? By the 1500s, was the tactic of sailing alongside the defending ship and boarding to attack merely attempted by looting pirates?

IIRC someone here had a combat model where there was a chance that faster ship could take over the ship without destroying it.

And concerning units in the old game, I like the old concept even though it doesn't make much sense when you think about it. Its the old realism vs. gameplay/fun aspect again.
I'm still open for new ideas though. (but a better place for that would be another thread)